This gives cadets going into their final years of pre-commissioning training the opportunity to experience life in an active duty unit. But short of that, cadets can end up in just about anywhere. Sometimes cadets are relegated to less-meaningful duties, or endure some modicum of hazing as part of the experience. I wondered how he, as a senior NCO in a highly specialized unit, felt about having cadets around. I asked if he gave the cadets in his unit a hard time as part of their CTLT experience.
Somewhat surprised by this, and thinking back to my own experiences in CTLT, I asked why he felt that way. I was floored. Everyone knows that the lowest Army private outranks the highest cadet… right?
I mean, that certainly seemed to be the case at Airborne School back in the day. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs. Very interesting. I learned something that day.
OK, fine. But having learned this, it made me wonder when this would actually matter in any meaningful way. Outside of authorized developmental training events such as CTLT, no NCO is going to allow a cadet to swoop in and take charge of his platoon, squad, or section. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander.
They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.
Of course, there is another reason to treat West Point and ROTC cadets with respect: they are not going to be cadets forever. The best way to train cadets to be officers that their soldiers will look up to and their NCOs will respect is to treat them the way you want them to act. Or a sergeant major for that matter. Scott Faith is a veteran of a half-dozen combat deployments and has served in several different Special Operations units over the course of his Army career.
Scott welcomes story ideas and feedback on his articles, and can be reached at havokjournal havokmedia. This essay is an unofficial expression of opinion; the views expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of West Point, the Department of the Army, U. Forces Korea, the Department of Defense, or any agency of the U. Practice ought to comport with policy. The cadet would still have to be "Regularly Assigned".
How would a cadet be regularly assigned? One might argue that a cadet who is SMP, simultaneous membership program, would be regularly assigned. So this cadet would already be embedded with the staff or command team or shadowing the Platoon Leader, and would most likely have some, albeit limited prior service.
Still though, the cadet might be assigned to the unit based on the Modified Table of Organization and Equipment MTO to a non cadet billet. So there is definitely some need to define regularly assigned. Does the cadet need to be regularly assigned to a Cadet billet? If you salute a cadet, who is not a commissioned officer you would be making the entire "First Salute" ceremony asinine if cadets had been entitled to salutes the entire time.
The authors creative example about an NCO looking at a lugnut and an officer looking at the whole vehicle is nuts bad humor. NCO's look at big picture constantly, good officers are aware of this and cultivate this. If you run a command climate where you relegate your NCOs to small picture things, you will be a small picture unit and your good NCOs will find their way out of your unit and you will be left with small picture, tunnel vision type folks such as those that you describe. Correction — The lugnut comment was in reference to comment 11 from Toga, not the author.
Sorry, I wrote that on the go from a mobile device, and can't edit it…. This rank business is a technicality of the rank system. It would be a very foolish cadet who started issuing orders to a senior sergeant.
The rank of a cadet is for protocol issues alone such as where to stand in a receiving line or where to sit at a formal dinner. Is the cadet attached or assigned a leadership position? Does the cadet have offiCial orders? Has the. Adept been officially assigned a position in the chain of command?
Sorry- from a legal perspective there is a lot not discussed. If cadets, during this valuable leadership experience, are not given the chance to act as lieutenants and acting platoon leaders, then the whole CLTC program should be scrapped.
Your comment reeks of arrogance. NCOs are the backbone of the Army and run the Army day to day as opposed to commanding it. I say this as a retired officer.
I pray that you are only a LT yourself. Of course there is a certain type of officer who fails to get it. For some reason a lot of angry major S3 types fall into this category. Oh please. Get off your high horse. Too many Cadets are treated like children by unprofessional NCOs who fail to realize that they are only alienating their future rather and or senior rather.
This author wrote an excellent piece. Appreciate your reply. Tired of all the "barracks lawyers" looking for some sort of designated, assigned, or "official" trappings of respect; absent the need to EARN that respect.
When an NCO saluted me, I didn't just wave my hand at my cover to dismiss the salute, but "locked up" a little myself, acknowledged him with eye contact, and responded to any greeting.
When I was a 2LT, I always took the fact that Vietnam vets years older than I was were saluting me as an obligation to do my best to earn that salute. I have heard the saying "Stop being an arrogant officer? While being true you must also realize there is a need for Commissioned Officers as well as Non Commissioned Officers. It goes both ways and without Officers the Army would surely still fall apart. Each job is as important as the rest. Officers and NCO's must realize alike that, they way you treat your future Officers NCO's case and the way you treat your subordinates Officers case will dictate how the military can and will be run in the future.
Share mutual respect and work together is the name of the game. This information was not covered or taught. I can't speak for the Air Force, but the Navy certainly does. Mids rank between W-1 and W-2 last time I had occasion to check. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
Salutes will be exchanged between officers commissioned and warrant and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard , the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.
Cadets are not commissioned nor do they possess a warrant. Per the order, they are not entitled to a salute. Salute were means of communication. Knights lifted their helmet to recognize they friends from enemy. It is a chain of command situation. I always say Semper Fi or Airborne when I return salute. I'm popping into the conversation late, but I completely agree not that you can argue with the regs. Saluting a cadet completely invalidates the First Salute ceremony when they commission.
They clearly outrank privates and are often assigned to leadership roles, but they aren't yet commissioned. I agree totally with enlisted not saluting a cadet. I spent 3 years as a MSG and never saluted a cadet. First, what an insult to a SNCO that instead of a 1SG with 10 plus years of experience leading soldiers in the absence of officers A Cadet would be next in succession.
How dare enlisted swine preside over a command position? Are we really saying an NCO could not do that? Secondly, just because of this outdated regulation considering no cadets are assigned to any deployed units requires no customs or courtesy obligation from enlisted soldiers or officers.
Seriously get over yourselves West Point you produce officers like any other university and they are no better or worse than anyone else. You earn everything in the Army. No commission? No salute. Thanks for your disgustingly pointless article. Ask any enlisted person and they will tell you that westpointers are arrogant and on need of a lot of training.
A lot of people have been killed in combat because of the arrogance of westpointers. I respect them all but I just wonder what makes them "Elite" as you say? Without these people, "How do you become "ELite"! First off the reg says regularly assigned personnel, which the Cadets are not. No Salute should be required or rendered.
You are absolutely wrong. Cadets are Officers period and should be rendered the appropriate courtesy. They're inchoate officers. When contracted you take the officer version of the oath as well. Cadets are never saluted. They aren't commissioned yet, and as pointed out above, they are considered equivalent to an E So you are incorrect when you say that Cadets outrank me.
Plus, it's not typically possible for a Cadet to be a " regularly assigned member" of any unit other than their school unit. By reg,they can't command or lead troops in the field. They aren't " in the pipeline" yet regarding training , experience or anything else yet. Technically, they aren't even qualified to fulfill a team leader slot.
Actually, cadets do fill positions in the National Guard in the Simultaneous Membership Program and can be assigned to an O-2 slot for a period of years. No, they won't deploy in that position, but they can and do attend annual training and NTC rotations and can act as Platoon Leader. You have to look at national guard and the reserves. Both have an option for Cadets to be apart of a simultaneous membership program. I am a cadet and am military police and drill with them as well.
AR lists command structure. That is why cadets dont go to parade rest while talking to NCOs. We only go to attention for officers. Dont take it as a sign of disrespect however. We are officers in training and when we get a chanve at a leadership role with the guidance of the NCOs it will ensure our success as officers.
Most cadets understand and respect the NCOs within their unit. I am acting PL of my platoon because we dont have a 2LT. I work with my leadership and learn from them and they help to shape me to become a good officer. CDT Vincent — High marks! You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and as such know who and where you are able to receive the BEST mentorship and hands on experience.
Cadet you are not a cadet when in you ng or reserve unit. You know this, you are assigned as whatever rank you have in the guard. Only through a wriiten agreement from the pms tonthe guard commander are allowed to serve as acting LT's. This does not mean they are to enact on that rank as authority has been given to the person in command of them. Treat the Cadets with respect. You guys are all discussing how the Army does it.. Hands on training.. The Cadet wr had wrote all of us NCOs that trained him, some.
Very nice endorsements. Now by chance he. We can feel confident we did our hob helping train a. Future leader in some position in our AF. A wise cadet will be mindful of their position.
Apologies for the long reply, but I felt that this would also help others who may also encounter similar rough situations, and although it didn't seem like it at the time, it was most definitely the opportunity of a lifetime simply because I became good enough even as a Pv2 that I was able to help teach others outside of my unit and help other units as well. All politics aside, as comes with any kind of Govt work, it was great duty, a great way to learn new skills, and I haven't found a skill yet that hasn't come in handy even now, almost 7 years after my ETS.
Uhlig - Thank you :. CPT Tom Monahan. Hate is over used by your age group. The key for the new officer is to earn respect. Part of that is recognizing you Senior NCOs are your trainers as much as they are for other soldiers. They are also your counselors while you are in the decision making process. Your junior NCOs are sometimes as green as you. Engage them in the planing and decision making processes.
Lastly, get your hand dirty and walk a mile in their shoes. Learn to wrench, do basic soldier skills and eat with them in the mess hall for breakfast and lunch. They are people just like you.
Sir, I was enlisted before I came on board. I'm still learning to approach all situations in a the best way but I felt like this guy was really disgruntled with the way previous leadership was.
Being called a butterbar according to my instructor insinuates that i'll melt as an LT and the context of his side of the conversation was not of flattery nor did it seem like training or counseling. Engagement sounds like the best plan of action. CPT Tom Monahan 5 y. Also use your Senior Cheif as a guide through this mine field. The NCO in question may have a history and be on short leash from above.
Just read your profile and saw you are Army vs Air Force. CPT Tom Monahan -. SMSgt Keith Klug. Cadet, enlisted personnel don't hate officers from my experience in the Air Force. The U. Despite some misgivings, everything has turned out Despite some misgivings , everything has turned out pretty well. Our services are better manned, trained, and equipped than ever before. The military is barely recognizable compared to the force that deployed to Vietnam in the s and early s: Its speed, ferocity, and dominance are unmatched.
Despite significant changes in almost every aspect of the defense department, however, a lot of outdated practices remain. The worst offender is the distinction between enlisted and commissioned personnel. There are plenty of ways to rationalize the system, which we inherited from the British as a colony. Whatever the explanation, they all break down on closer inspection.
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